The Lighter Side of Life

Dr. Michael Zimmer is a father, husband, Chief Data Officer and Head of AI/ML at Zurich Germany. He is the editor of various publications on data, analytics and data science and is a Fellow of TDWI Germany. Before joining Zurich, he worked in consulting for more than 13 years. In his main job, he deals with showing the potential of Data and Analytics (D&A), while spreading the joy for Data and AI and is building bridges between business and IT to create a common spirit of optimism.

In addition to supposedly hot topics like AI, however, he is also responsible for defining data strategy, further developing data architecture and data governance. The combination of both areas is the foundation to walk the path with Zurich to become an Insight Driven Insurer.

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Transcript

Hadley: [00:00:00] Dr. Michael Zimmer. Welcome to the show, dude. Michael: Thanks for being here.       Hadley: Cool, cool. Listen, I've really been looking forward to this, to this, this conversation, to, to finding out what's behind you. I've always kind of, you know, read your, your, your posts online and, and the papers that you've written. And I just find it.

[00:00:22] Yeah. You know, that mix between, um, between deep thinking and humour and just you know, um, yeah, zest for life. And, uh, I see that in you. I w I kind of, I identify with that, you know, and, um, and yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to finding out what's behind the man. 

[00:00:41] Michael: [00:00:41] Yeah. I hope, uh, um, yeah, much, but we'll see. You ask the questions.

[00:00:47] Um, 

[00:00:48] Hadley: [00:00:48] okay, cool. Yeah. So, so number one, I, look, I always ask my guests right at the start is what does curiosity mean to you?

[00:00:54] Michael: [00:00:54] So I think in the beginning, if I think of curiosity, um, I think about my youth and, um, I think it was an Australian TV show called curiosity show, um, where they showed all kind of research things.

[00:01:09] So that comes to my mind. If I look to it, literally. Curiosity is for me. Um, so I want to have fun at work. I want to, um, develop new things, get new ideas. So for me, uh, it's important, um, to be curious, because it helps me to redefine myself, got to understand new things, um, and also to become a better me, um, personal business, but also from a family point of view.

[00:01:40] So, um, it's important to learn and be curious. 

[00:01:44] Hadley: [00:01:44] Yeah, no, I know, I know that, that, you know, you have a young lad and that, you know, uh, again from your posts. I see that you're very involved as an active dad and kind of play out your curiosity through your son as well. Well, how would you say um curious or what, what part do you think curiosity plays in, in the development of a child?

[00:02:04] Michael: [00:02:04] So I think in the end, um, uh, growing up and, um, for a kid it's about stimulations that we have to give them. So we have to be there. We have to talk with them. We have to interact, but in the end they want to understand the world. They want to see the things and they want to be curious with their own eyes.

[00:02:26] So I think for me, Um, curiosity is something that is driving the kids. Um, they don't know it, but they want to explore. They have to explore. And maybe it's also by evolution that they have to do it because, um, there is a German kids show where they are saying in the theme who isn't asking, um, stays um dumb.

[00:02:49] And I think it's like that you have to ask, you have to be curious. And that's what kids are doing. And I think that's something that we can learn from them. And also there is no stupid question. Um, it's only stupid, not knowing and being afraid of asking something, um, because we all have to learn. 

[00:03:08] Hadley: [00:03:08] I agree.

[00:03:09] And it's, it's, it's actually being the confidence in yourself to ask a question where you don't think not knowing is what defines you. So let me ask you a question. Doc, children

[00:03:20] Hadley: [00:03:20] seem to have this natural. Innate curiosity kind of built into them. Do you think that as we get older and as adults, that, that what seems to be innate in children get suppressed?

[00:03:31] Michael: [00:03:31] So I, I really think it is because people think they have to be formal. They have to fulfil some, some rules. And I think we want to be straight forward. Nevertheless, um, being curious, asking questions, um, is important. And, um, my wife normally calls me her third child. Um, and I think it's a compliment.

[00:04:01] Hadley: [00:04:01] Yeah, same here. My wife does the same for me.

[00:04:01] Michael: [00:04:01] And so I want to be curious. And if you look at my LinkedIn posts are stuff with a family. I want to show the people that they, that there is family life that you can learn that you don't have to be, um, um, too strict or fulfil all kinds of laws. So I'm chief data officer of a insurance and I'm running around nowadays in t-shirts in some situations.

[00:04:29] Yeah. And it's good because we can and, um, just, um, where wearing a formal shirt, doesn't make me a better person. And it's the same with asking questions and other things. So we have to be curious. 

[00:04:42] Hadley: [00:04:42] Completely agreed. It's the asking or not knowing something and having the confidence to ask questions about something you're unsure of.

[00:04:50] I, for me, I think that shows, um, you know, is something that I think is positive rather than what some perceive to be negative and not wanting to be seen, not knowing an answer to something, because there's so much out there. You can't know everything right. 

[00:05:06] Michael: [00:05:06] That's a good point that you mentioned. So in consulting I learned, um, sometimes it's good to ask.

[00:05:11] Um, also too, if you don't know, ask stupid questions, it's better to ask them because then you understand something. If not, you won't speak the right language. Um, and no one will, um, harm you. If you ask, as long as they see, you want to understand, and you, you are rolling up your sleeves, um, to support them.

[00:05:33] But I'm never afraid of asking. Um, you should always ask. 

[00:05:37] Hadley: [00:05:37] I, I, I agree. And I think sometimes it's actually, you get a fuller understanding than a lot of people that have been doing that job for a long time, because the focus is narrow. And I think asking questions around, you know, where things come from, where does it go?

[00:05:50] What do you do with it? I don't understand this. What do you mean by that? Because you know, people can have different understandings about the same thing and have been working together for five years. Um, you know, it, it sounds, it sounds crazy, but it's, I've, I've seen it 

[00:06:06] Michael: [00:06:06] so many times being a sponge for information and, um, take all kinds of information is really good.

[00:06:12] So like a sponges squeezing in the water, we should squeeze in the information. 

[00:06:17] Hadley: [00:06:17] Okay. But listen, this is a show about you doc. So, um, Let's go to the beginning. Right? Normally what I tell people is imagine this is we're all sitting around a campfire, everyone's telling their life story and tag you’re it.

[00:06:31] Um, what were your parents like? What was early life like? Did you have siblings? 

[00:06:36] Michael: [00:06:36] So, um, I got a sibling when I was older, but my early life was, I grew up, um, in a normal middle-class German family had the situation, um, that my parents got divorced. For me this was a thing, um, where I decided instead of being, um, uh, let's say

[00:07:00] the ball that was kicked around between the lawyers of my mom and my dad. I said, okay, I want to go to my grandma and decided, um, when I was six or seven years, um, that I want to live with my grandma. And she became my second mother, or I became her, um, son number four because, um, she had eight kids, seven kids, eight with me.

[00:07:24] Hadley: Okay, cool. Michael: And, um, I grew up there, um, with my aunts and uncles and was able to learn quite much. 

[00:07:33] Hadley: [00:07:33] Okay, cool. Uh, that's actually a story that resonates with me. I spent a massive part of my childhood growing up with my grandma also on my mom's side. And in fact, you know, they were eight kids as well, so at a very in different ages, uh, and to me, they, they almost became like brothers and sisters rather than aunts and uncles, because I spent so much time there.

[00:07:52] But what was it like for you then and living with your aunts and uncles and what kind of influence did they have on you? 

[00:07:59] Michael: [00:07:59] So, um, they were older, so my uncles and aunts were, um, about 30 years older, um, or 20 to 30 years older than I was. So for them, I was, um, the little nephew and they supported me. So, um, the uncles learnt me how to become, um, to, to do things in the house, repair things.

[00:08:22] Um, my aunt, um, who was around an academic. Um, supported me with computers. I was standing next to her for hours and looking how she worked. I learned how to use shortcuts in, um, in word, she, she bought me, my first computer. Um, and I did some programming, but also for. Um, she, um, um, she raised my interest to German punk bands with let's say, um, Um, um, lyrics that are, um, critical to society.

[00:08:57] And this also helped me to, to, to look behind, um, um, the happy life of a middle aged class. Yeah, 

[00:09:06] Hadley: [00:09:06] yeah. Behind the scenes, essentially. Right. Yeah. Okay, cool. How did that kind of exposure to computers then influence you and what you're doing today? Did it have an influence or was it. What was the route at least through schooling, to, uh, what you chose at uni.

[00:09:26] Michael: [00:09:26] So for me um a computer. Um, Indifference to my friends. They used it as a toy Hadley: To play games. Michael: Most of them play games. Um, I used it as some kind of tool I also played, but I also knew how to change registries, uh, install things, repair things. Um, nevertheless, I never was. Um, let's, let's be in some kind of, um, Um, boxes.

[00:09:55] I never was the nerd. So I was listening to hip hop, um, was skateboarding, um, and all the things. So kind of things partying. But what I realised when I become older, also in school, um, for me, education was important, but, um, I did it because. I was good at it. It wasn't hard for me and the nerds in the end were the more cooler guys, than our partying guys, because when I realised that they are good at it, they like what they do.

[00:10:30] It's not, I have to learn to become successful because they learn because they liked it or, or it was easy to them that this was interesting to me. And with the computers, for example, I also learned quite much with them. Um, yeah, I re. Computers were part of me, but never like the programming geek for the whole time.

[00:10:53] Hadley: [00:10:53] So. Sure. So you had a varied existence, you liked different things and you were exposed to different things and computers just happened to be one of them. 

[00:11:01] Michael: [00:11:01] Yeah. And I also think, um, I also was part of many groups and this also helps me nowadays. So, um, the skater guys, the rap guys, the computer guys, um, the old friends at schools.

[00:11:14] Hadley: [00:11:14] So you can. You can speak to different people,

[00:11:16] Michael: [00:11:16] essentially. Yeah. The only sad thing is, um, or not sad thing, but compared to friends of mine, they had their group of friends. Um, it was 21 and they are together with them. Um, for ages, for me, it's I had friends out of every group, so I don't, I can't go to a place and meet all of my friends because they are separated all over.

[00:11:38] But if I look at my job. It helps me to translate nowadays, because I think I learned much about different people there. Right? 

[00:11:48] Hadley: [00:11:48] Yeah. And, and I guess that is also because of that sense of curiosity is, is, uh, I think. You know, it's hard to not want to know more about different people, about different subjects, about different, just different things.

[00:12:00] Right? Cause that innate sense of curiosity is almost a, like you want to know more stuff. I was, I was similar to you. In fact, we, you know, it, wasn't just a specific group of friends. I liked people and I like learning about new people. So I'm also very varied and, and. Let's just through

[00:12:21] school then and to university.

[00:12:24] What was it like in school and, and what was it in the end that kind of led you to choose the degree you chose?

[00:12:30] Michael: [00:12:30] So I think in, in school I was, uh, okay. Um, students, I could have been better. But I didn't do my decisions there for a reason. So I went to primary school, I got the approval for the German, A level, and I was in there.

[00:12:50] So I was floating with the others, um, and, um, succeeded, but I didn't do it for any reasons because I was at the gymnasium, which is called in Germany. Um, I did my best, um, too, or did enough to succeed, but not more, um, I think, um, the, the choice of, um, uh, subject for the university came. So computer was part of my life.

[00:13:20] Um, since I was six. So as my mom worked at IBM, I also got the old computers quite easily, too. Hadley: What did she do at IBM, by the way? Michael: Um, she was some kind of, uh, only supporting, um, for, um, audit and compliance and she was also assistance. Um, but no tech jobs. So she was, uh, In that age, the, the classical, mid educated, um, wife who was doing a job there, nevertheless, IBM back in the days was a really good place to work for.

[00:13:57] Hadley: [00:13:57] Yeah, man, I suppose even now, I mean, they're pretty big company and. Back then it wouldn't have been, you know, um, I guess it would have been somewhat earlier days, right. Even to, to IBM and their growth and becoming this massive, big blue.

[00:14:11] Michael: [00:14:11] Yeah. So it was nice. Um, but if I look, look back why I choose, um, the subject.

[00:14:21] So as I mentioned, um, I was between already walking between different groups. Um, I had to work, um, part-time at school. Um, so I came into IT jobs because my, um, geeky friends were programmers. They realised, okay, I'm not the best programmer. Like they are. Nevertheless, I can do it. Um, I'm better in communication.

[00:14:48] And I started as a programmer in a small company for, um, school software and ended up being the, the hotline, um, release guy, going to the schools, talking to the teachers, getting requirements, understanding the problems. So they are, what's the first thing we are realised. Okay. Um, becoming a programmer and studying, um, pure IT.

[00:15:12] It's not what I want. And I went for information systems where I could combine business and IT and I never regretted it. 

[00:15:21] Hadley: [00:15:21] Well, I mean, I just, we know today is a massive gap and usually within businesses between IT and the business and having that common understanding. So having that skillset is an extremely valuable skill to have.

[00:15:36] So, and you realising that that early on, uh, I guess is, is, uh, it's pretty cool as well. So your first job, then what, what happened kind of between your first degree going into your first job and you then doing your doctorate? 

[00:15:53] Michael: [00:15:53] Okay. So, um, I was one of the.. Germany, we changed our, uh, university system from diploma to bachelor and master.

[00:16:00] So I was one of the guys. Uh, who did the first bachelor degree, um, in Stuttgart, which was not so funny, 70 people started, um, to do the bachelor, um, 11 got the bachelor's. So about 60 people failed, um, at least

[00:16:19] Hadley: [00:16:19] over what period of time was that? That the dropouts happened? 

[00:16:22] Michael: [00:16:22] Um, mainly in the first one and a half to two years, the 12 to 15 people, um, Um, they succeeded later on, maybe not like me, um, in the normal period, um, after the study time, but one or two years later, but, um, we had a massive, massive dropout.

[00:16:44] Hadley: [00:16:44] Okay. And was it, was it really difficult or did they just not like the content? What, what was the main reason?

[00:16:50] Michael: [00:16:50] Um, in the past in Germany, you had some kind of free diploma and, um, the diploma phases and the pre diploma, it was about, um, uh, getting a C and that's fine. Um, but with a bachelor's degree, um, they didn't realise that we had now, um, 60% of such exams where you had a, um, uh, a failure rate of 60 to 80%.

[00:17:18] And we had also some classes, but 100% fail. Um, and they didn't realise it. And the really bad thing was they also didn't realise that it was important for us to get good grades from day one. So, um, I got my bachelor's degree with a C and still with a C I was part of the top 10 of my peer group. Hadley: Whoa.

[00:17:41] Michael: Okay. So that's something you can't tell. Um, but, um, with a bachelor in the pocket, um, I did my master's degree. So with that

[00:17:52] Hadley: [00:17:52] You did it. You did it immediately afterwards or did you go work somewhere first?

[00:17:54] Michael: [00:17:54] Um, I work part-time, um, when I was studying, so I, uh, kept on, uh, doing the master's degree. Um, and, um, while I did that, I also, um, made one, in the end of the master’s, one semester, um, in Singapore.

[00:18:13] So I started, um, I wanted to go to China. Um, didn't manage to learn Chinese language, and then I thought, okay, let's go for Singapore....